Polkadot and DAOs, with Irina Karagyaur

Polkadot and DAOs, with Irina Karagyaur

Irina Karagyaur of Polkadot

2021-04-27

This episode is all about DAOs – Decentralized Autonomous Organisations!

Irina Karagyaur joins us to talk about Polkadot, an open-source project founded by the Web3 Foundation to build a network protocol that allows true interoperability between different blockchains. Irina’s passion for IoT and Smart Cities brought her from architecture to working with blockchain and eventually to become one of the Head Ambassadors of Polkadot.

Polkadot’s DAOs is one of the most exciting examples of the space, with Ambassadors contributing to the community by bidding on projects, creating educational and marketing content, NFTs, partaking in events and most importantly, developing things on Polkadot. 

DAOs bring about a completely new organisational model, and of course, such new paradigms also come with challenges of explaining to the world how the decentralized world works. Will centralized organisations disappear and become DAOs? Or will centralized and decentralized work together in the future? Tune in also for Irina’s top 3 pieces of advice for founders wishing to create DAOs.

Watch the video podcast on Youtube, or listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Key points with Irina Karagyaur

  1. Introduction to Polkadot and DAOs
    Polkadot is described as a unique multi-chain platform with the ambitious objective of enabling different blockchains to communicate and exchange value in a trust-free environment. Parallel to this, the concept of Decentralized Autonomous Organizations (DAOs) is introduced. DAOs represent a revolutionary approach to organizational structure, running based on pre-defined rules and eliminating the need for centralized control.
  2. Motivation and Participation in DAOs
    Many are drawn to the world of DAOs out of sheer curiosity and the aspiration to learn. Irina points out, “People join, like me, out of curiosity, or wanting to learn or connect with teams that are building on Polkadot.” This casual interest often evolves into more serious involvement, with many converting these roles into full-time positions.

    The Polkadot ecosystem in particular provides a plethora of opportunities. Irina notes, “We have access to ecosystem jobs, advertiser, insight, jobs board,” highlighting opportunities in areas like development, community management, and marketing.
  3. Values and Decentralization
    The success of a DAO hinges significantly on its core values. Irina emphasizes, “People join DAO’s for values, for personalities, for big ideas.” Decentralization, while empowering, demands a more proactive approach and responsibility from its members. This is especially true in the realm of asset management in the crypto world.

    However, a challenge arises with participation. As Irina observes, “There is now less than 1% actively participating in what happens like anything to do with the on-chain governance.”
  4. Challenges with the Centralized Model
    Traditional models of organization, characterized by centralized control, provide a sense of familiarity and stability to most people. However, they may lack the flexibility and adaptability that DAOs can offer. Decentralization demands a significant shift in mindset from individuals.

    Ben remarks, “It’s really ingrained into us, you know, the sort of model of following a leader,” highlighting the need to transition from passive followership to taking individual initiative and responsibility.
  5. Role of Technology and Education
    The potential of blockchain technology is vast, but there’s a need to make it more accessible to the average person. Irina expresses a hope for the future, saying, “I would like to see them in blockchain so that soon we’ll be able to build dApps without needing to know the code.”

    Additionally, as the world of DAOs and blockchain becomes more complex, the role of education becomes paramount. It’s essential to equip individuals with the knowledge and tools to navigate and leverage these platforms effectively.
  6. Future Prospects
    Both Ben and Irina exude optimism about the trajectory of DAOs and their potential impact on the world. They recognize the early stages of this movement but see vast potential in its growth. Ben shares, “We’re only in the early stages of this so far, but there’s already some great examples of how DAOs are now operating in the real world.”

The future of DAOs and the Polkadot ecosystem is on a trajectory of growth and transformation. As these decentralized models mature, they have the potential to revolutionize traditional organizational structures. While they are in their early stages, the increasing accessibility of technology and expanding educational opportunities in the space suggest a world where decentralized models will be central. These systems, rooted in core values and driven by blockchain technology, hint at a decentralized, participatory, and innovative future where individuals have the power to directly influence projects and initiatives.

Transcript

Ben Sheppard  00:30

Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of the TX – Tomorrow Explored podcast show. I’m Ben Sheppard, the Managing director of TX and your host for the pod today. Hope everyone’s doing well across the world listening to this podcast. Very excited about our guest today, because she’s going to be talking to us all about Polkadot, which is a project that I’ve been following for some time and in particular, how decentralization and governance works within the Polkadot project. So, today’s guest is Irina Karagyaur, who’s the head ambassador for Western Europe, Polkadot and Kusama networks, and I know I’ve got your surname wrong, so you can correct me know I Irina.

Irina Karagyaur  01:14

That was actually perfectly fine. Thanks for having me. Hello, everyone.

Ben Sheppard  01:19

Cool. I practiced it three times before this pod over the internet. Yeah, if she says it right, I’m going to take that thank you very much.

Irina Karagyaur  01:28

Practice makes perfect, doesn’t it?

Ben Sheppard  01:31

It did. So, what’s been going on with you, Irina, what have you been up to recently?

Irina Karagyaur  01:37

Life is great in crypto space despite all the outer world challenges. I’m currently in Spain actually came here for some blockchain related work and spreading the word about Polkadot down in Spain, Spanish community which has been growing in Polkadot ecosystem pretty fast. It’s very exciting. Yeah, so things are looking very, very good. We’re about to enter para chain auction season. So, there’s a lot going on in the Polkadot and Kusama ecosystem, right now.

Ben Sheppard  02:19

Have you been drawn into buying any NFT’s, with the craze that’s going on at the moment?

Irina Karagyaur  02:25

I have a couple yes, not those that cost, like 69 million by Christie’s of course, but yes, actually I’m staying with a friend here. She’s an artist, that traditional abstract painter and she got into an NFT and she created actually an NFT of Naomi Campbell recently, which I reposted on her Instagram. So, it is a very interesting time for artists to sort of rethink their approach to art. I see a lot of interest in digital artists. There are actually quite a few very promising projects in Polkadot ecosystem. NFT marketplace, NFT blockchain unique network, if you may know they created crypto punks some time ago. Yeah, they’re all in Polkadot actually, Kusama NFT’s. Yeah, there are lots of conversations around NFT’s. Some of the Tesla works actually guys that work for Tesla create some kind of exciting shoes with graffiti and flying jackets. I’m looking into maybe joining the movement.

Ben Sheppard  03:18

The Taco Bell one got a lot of attention, because if you bought a Taco Bell, NFT, you also got a $500 voucher with it to buy Taco Bells. I seem to be in a lot of them in lockdown at the moment is kind of tempted by.

Irina Karagyaur  04:05

At least that way, I should have called you before.

Ben Sheppard  04:11

What’s really funny is you can sell the NFT in a secondary market and it’s worth more in a secondary market than when you first purchased it, but it doesn’t still have the $500 Voucher with it, which is kind of like wow, it went up in value, but you don’t get the meals.

Irina Karagyaur  04:26

Yeah, so there was a long debate about this secondary market thing going on, on Twitter and like why are we again falling into place where we’re not rewarding an artist. We’re rewarding the middleman and the middleman sell somebody else’s art and is getting more money so doesn’t make any sense to me. You know, where’s the peer-to-peer transparency fairness of blockchain? Kind of questionable approach. So, I hope that just people will stop buying secondary, like a second wave of NFT’s and just go directly to artists and actually support those who create, because we are all about supporting creators and creating fair markets for creators to get fair reward for their work.

Ben Sheppard  05:22

Yeah, exactly. So, how long have you been in the world of Web3, then Irina, and what were you doing before you got into this wonderful world of blockchain and Cryptos, and tech?

Irina Karagyaur  05:34

Well, my background is architecture and urban planning. So, I would say that I have been close to technology for quite some time, as I’ve always been passionate about smart cities and how data can be transferred in a city, how can you read data? My master’s thesis was about the use of erlang data, which is an aggregated telephone data for reading urban dynamics. So, I find it quite useful and fascinating what you can gather from the web and how you can use it in the real world. Companies like Amazon and Google are now making billions on our data. So, I discovered blockchain back in around 2016, when I got interested in Prop tech, but those days, it wasn’t really easy to do anything practical with Blockchain and there was not enough trust and interest from the real sector, in blockchain. So, I’ve been on, let’s say, more of an international business development and business development marketing kind of side of companies I worked for. Even buying Bitcoin for me was a bit of a challenge because you know, there was those applications on website where you had to go through a very complex KYC. Then there was a code and there were no API’s and there was no such thing as an application for your iPhone, where you could just, you know, click two buttons, and just buy a Bitcoin like it is now.

So, it was kind of, you know, the faraway world which I was observing from a distance but not getting close to because I basically didn’t know how, because I didn’t have close friends who were developers are building something and the world of business was just like, okay, well wait and see what that brings. Then when the lockdown happened in April 2020, in England, everybody discovered the digital world and everybody began talking about digitizing processes and companies, discovered cryptocurrencies, obviously the Bull Run kind of began. So, recently I discovered Polkadot ecosystem project rubber nomics, which I invested in today, and it’s about Internet of Things. So, it’s strictly linked to smart cities, which is my major area of interest. So, then I decided to join Polkadot and also Fibree, which is the foundation for international blockchain and real estate expertise. Some of my clients from consultancy, and from my past, came back to me and asked me, you know, what do we do with tokens? How do we tokenize things? What are the opportunities for a real sector and finance and fintech? So, it all kind of organically began, from there. I started to learn more about the opportunities of blockchain and a couple of courses. Yeah, join the ambassador program and basically, the major reason why I joined Polkadot ambassador program is to learn because I’m not a developer. I didn’t know how things worked. There were a lot of interesting new words for me like para chains and para threads and shards and all that was like, Japanese to me, but I fell into a very, very welcoming community. Very helpful, and it’s an exciting world. So, I discovered the world within the world. As I always say, like we’re trying to fly rockets. Hello, Elon Musk, to Mars and moon and every other place, but we actually have a lot of assets on our planet that we can unlock, and we can use, and we can actually find a way to fairly redistribute wealth that we have. I truly believe there’s enough for everybody to live a happy, wealthy, healthy, good life in a way that we should be living without needing to struggle.

Ben Sheppard  09:38

Yeah. It’s quite funny when you were talking about the struggles you had buying your first Bitcoin it made me remember the first time, I actually bought any crypto it was I didn’t buy bitcoin I bought Eath and I bought it in a seven elevens store in the Philippines where I was living at the time, and I sort of went in there with my coins.ph was okay, so I give them this code, and then they’re gonna give me some of this Ethereum token and that’s gonna go in this wallet. I remember doing what I was like, and then I was waiting for it to come through and it took a bit of time. I was like, what have I just done and then Bing it was there, and I was like, okay, so now I’ve got this Eath token didn’t really know what to do with it, because like you, I came from the civil engineering industry. So, I’m not from tech either. So, all of this language that we now understand, back then I had no idea what half of this meant, but I just thought, I should probably buy some of these because they sound interesting, and I’ll hold them. So, to see where this takes me, but at the time, you know, didn’t even consider that as different types of blockchain or that this thing called sharing, or, you know, para chains, or any of this sort of stuff. So, yeah, now being in the industry for a while, it’s like, ah, okay, this is what all this means, and how it all fits together, but for the listeners out there that are now a little bit confused and wondering, well, what does all this stuff mean? We’re gonna break it down in this pod. So, we’re gonna discuss exactly that now, with Irina, so we’re gonna kick off with Polkadot and basically explain what Polkadot is and how it works. Then later, we’ll get into DAO. So, in a nutshell, Irina, and it would be a big nut, when it’s Polkadot, how would you explain Polkadot to someone who’s unfamiliar with it?

Irina Karagyaur  11:27

Well, to put it very simple, which is, I’m going to be putting, probably given the simplest explanation of what Polkadot is, is actually a network that allows communication between different blockchains. So, the major goal of Polkadot is to create interoperability and the possibility of transacting arbitrary data, not just tokens, across blockchains. So, we have architecture and a language that is flexible at permits, communication, between different blockchains through things like bridges, para chains. It allows you to build applications that get permission data from a private blockchain and use it on a public blockchain. So, that is another big advantage of Polkadot that you can make, you can enable communication between private blockchains and public blockchains, which was pretty difficult before Polkadot emerged. So, there are a few things that we tried to achieve is true interoperability, cross blockchain transfers of any type of data or assets, not just tokens, economic and transactional scalability, that is a second important point and is a blockchain innovation through substrate language and called security. user driven network governance, which is DAO and console.

Ben Sheppard  13:00

Some substrates, if I understood it correctly, is basically sort of the framework that you use for building your own para chain that connects into Polkadot. So, you can take that build your own blockchain that then sort of is interoperable with the other para chains that sit in that Polkadot sort of network. Is that right?

Irina Karagyaur  13:22

Yes, that is correct. So, basically the main challenge was that languages that were used to build Ethereum network were not flexible enough and were difficult to use, but be not a developer, I actually learned that substrate is not as easy to use as one can think, but it gives you more tools to create more blockchains and like Robin omics is doing connect IoT connected them to another blockchain that can be an exchange. So, what a column network is doing, like they are creating. So, there will be Karuna network first that luncheon Kusama, because I should probably begin by saying why Kusama is important because in this power chain season, a lot of projects are first going in Kusama. It used to be a test net now is kind of like that is just a little bit cheaper version of Polkadot which has exactly the same qualities but the low barrier to enter. Supply chain slots cost little less than on Polkadot and it has little less security than Polkadot. So, what everyone will see is projects migrating to Kusama and then Kusama migrating to Polkadot or some of them will stay on Kusama as long as they wish. So, there will be tokens in our Defi projects like a caller will use a stable coin that you will be able to use it on Kusama and on Polkadot and there will be a bridge built between Polkadot and Kusama so Polkadot and Kusama can talk, and projects can exchange assets on both blockchains.

Ben Sheppard  15:11

Yeah, got it. Okay, that’s pretty cool. I guess one of the benefits as well of having these para chains is you’re not gonna get the massive congestion because it’s all focused in one chain, it’s actually then split, the workload is split for specific projects against each of these power chains and I guess to some extent, does that help deal with high guess prices, like Ethereum suffering with at the moment, because you’ve got these projects on separate para chains or is that how it works?

Irina Karagyaur  15:41

Sort of, so there is a limited number of power chains. That’s why the power chain auctions, so projects will only be able to hold a power chain, I believe, for about two years’ time. Then they will have to go through a bid again and try to win the power chain slot. Basically, that is created to keep innovation going to avoid this kind of conflicts and hard forks, but also what helps us to avoid hard forks is actually the mechanism of Polkadot governance. It is all automated through meta protocol. So, that is the basics of governance that Polkadot is updated, no matter the decisions on the chain, so it’s automatic. It just released this new block. So, today’s Polkadot v1. Tomorrow, it magically automatically releases v2. So, there is no need to go through complex decisions and debate, whether it’s the right thing to do or whether it’s not the right thing to do. It just happened to post up.

Ben Sheppard  16:51

Okay, well, that probably leads us on nicely to then, you know, what is the DAO, and you know, what makes up a DAO because what we’re sort of touching on here is essentially what these DAO’s do, it’s that automatic aspect of it, but also the Decentralized Governance and people being able to vote on things. So, how would you describe a DAO to someone who’s unfamiliar with it?

Irina Karagyaur  17:15

So, DAO, Decentralized Autonomous Organization, so basically, no central leadership, or no central decision can be made by the group, it’s made by the group of people through voting mechanism. Ideas can be submitted and incentivized through voting using tokens most of the time. DAO’s have their own rules, and they manage their own funds in a way they decide is best for the community. So, what it is, to me, the main advantages are global coordination, transparency, and food organizations. DAO’s are really good ways of creating new management models that were not possible before. They give more transparency, they give more inclusion, because you can be you know, you don’t have to have a physical voting center, you can just do everything on chain. Basically, DAO for me is kind of an outcome of a shared economy that’s already taken place, and in Europe a lot. So, it provides basically opportunities for new businesses, how that is going to grow in the future. It’s a really good question to ask actually, everybody, because there are so many ways in which we can use DAO and the space is open and you can be as creative as you want to, you know, to create your own organization to gather your own group of people and find a way to make decisions, but in Polkadot, it’s pretty much an automated process.

Ben Sheppard  19:01

How does an enterprise interface with a DAO? So, you know, say, I don’t know let’s say there’s a automotive company that gets interested in blockchain. Canvas in different chains that could work with Polkadot comes up as one. Someone off the board says, right, I’m gonna get a meeting with the board of this Polkadot company. I want to go and meet them all and have a conversation with them and understand how this blockchain thing works. How does that work in a DAO type scenario out of those enterprises reach out for a discussion and sort of make that deal happen?

Irina Karagyaur  19:38

Well, you see, I guess, like big help to make anything happen in Polkadot is, its ambassador program and the community that is behind it’s token holders. Token holders are not necessarily ambassadors, because it’s kind of a voluntary way of joining the network. So, anybody who wants to be an ambassador can be an ambassador, we don’t really check in if you hold the token circus and tokens or not, but if you’re interested in making Polkadot network grow and improve, then you’re more than welcome to join. Then through an ambassador program, we have basically, to me it’s like a pool of talent that we have. We have candidates, then candidates are promoted to ambassadors and senior ambassadors and then to head ambassadors. The decisions are made on a principle that you contribute significantly to the community. So, you do something like you identify that there is not enough marketing effort. So, you submit a proposal to the community like, okay, we need to do, I don’t know, a show, an educational channel, or YouTube channel recently will open a woman clubhouse, where we invite our ecosystem leaders like CEO of a Kala, like our best substrate developer, to have a conversation going to explain people, what it’s all about, what’s going on, where we up to in terms of purchasing auction, you know, how things are building and developing. Actually enterprises, they can just reach out to us, they can reach out to ambassadors, which happens most of the time they go to ambassador, and say, okay, I’m building this. So, there are two actually ways you can be building something already effectively, and you want to integrate Polkadot. So, we offer this support, together with hi-tech technologies. There is a Substrate Academy for advanced projects. So, everybody who’s already familiar with substrate and effectively building something can get our advice and consultation, or there isn’t a Substrate Academy for beginners, so to speak. So, maybe your developer who’s building up stops, but in another language, you can join substrate course, which I believe between six and eight weeks, it’s fairly inexpensive and it’s led by Brian Chen, who is the leading developer of substrate in the world and he’s also CEO of a core network.

Ben Sheppard  22:16

Okay. So, basically, you have these ambassador programs, and there’s training within that, those that wants to get involved in this ecosystem, they can go through these different training courses. Then basically, this is how they can progress up through the ranks of Ambassador and then basically bid on different bits of work that might need to be done, whether it’d be marketing, or, I don’t know, some sales activity or technical work, but you ensure that there’s a consistency in the quality of service by putting people through these training programs. So, which was sort of one of the things I was thinking, so if anyone can come in and sort of represent Polkadot, how do you get that consistency, but I guess the training programs sort of act in that way by bringing people up to certain levels as they represent the organization?

Irina Karagyaur  23:15

Well, you see, because it’s decentralized and it’s a bit of a challenge for us actually, to explain new people, new to the blockchain space in general, what decentralization is what it truly means, because we’re all used to central power, a manager giving orders and saying you need to do this, this, and that, go do it, come back with the result. In decentralized organizations doesn’t work like that, because we have an ambassador program, anybody can join, no matter the background to your skill set, you can enroll to program, become a candidate, join our Discord channel, and start interacting with other candidates and with Web3 Foundation team, with heritage college’s team, with ambassadors, senior ambassadors, head ambassadors, etc. So, now we restructured a bit our ambassador program, and now all our activities go around working group, so working group for developers, localization means translation to different languages or local meetups, events which now are mainly online events. First one, content, so content, any kind of videos, blog posts, infographics, explanation of what Polkadot is? So, we have Trello boards for all these groups, and anybody who joins can go to Trello account, upload their idea and say, I want to work on creating content for a partially an auction and look for people who joined that group and then we have sort of monthly and quarterly calls.

So, now our head ambassadors are there, 24 head ambassadors either regional or there’s a head ambassador for events for localization. All the work like head ambassadors are basically managing mainly the region to have the opportunity to have these regional calls with less people than 400 people subscribe me for Ambassador problem because when you have 400 people on the call, it’s very difficult to listen to everyone and, you know, understand what is needed for the community. So, we decided to split ambassadors, divide ambassadors by regions, and then have more sort of local discussion going on. We also have local discord channels. Then it’s also easier to see if there are more developers, if there are more people interested in marketing and content creation, etc. Actually, when you come in, you’re free to do what you want. Polkadot brand, logo, all the materials are available on the polkadot.network website. You can have freedom to organize your own meetup. Nobody controls you. Then the quality you have to keep yourself accountable for the quality of content you’re producing. Then of course, since you are seen by everybody, you know, you have to make sure that you’re using legitimate sources that you’re explain information. Oftentimes, some of my candidates when they create an infographic, they just upload it on discord and ask everyone’s opinion. So, Web3 Foundation research team can see it, because obviously, they have a lot of work in here because they are the ones building actually, Polkadot network. So, you know, if not a developer who’s actually building the network can tell you what is wrong and what is right. So, it’s kind of like democracy voting, discussion, continuous discussion.

We’re continuously improving the way in which we work and grow community and ambassador program because ambassadors are, of course crucial, because they are a big part of education of what blockchain is in general, and what Polkadot and Web3 is, in particular, because we now began working with some of the top universities like I just had an event with UCL University. Then Polytech no di Milano is running a series of engineering blockchain, like blockchain week. So, this is very important for us, because the main goal is to educate people and give them a way to join and actually encourage them to join, regardless their skill set, because this isn’t an entire new industry where, you know, traditional marketers can come in, but the way they submit their proposal is not to somebody and on the boss of Web3 Foundation, they go to a treasury, where we have a console, which is a part of our governance, and they can submit a proposal to Treasury and say, we need to upgrade Polkadots branding, which is actually happening right now we’re voting on different proposals on the new brand name for Polkadot, and Treasury has a lot of funds and how we collect funds, it’s actually through transaction fees in efficiencies of the staking reward system or from slashing. So, on an appropriate behavior and on the network, and you get punished for your behavior. So, the purpose of treasury is to use those funds to improve network, ecosystem, and facilities. So, there are funds and last time I checked, there were something like 40,000 dots. So, it’s all in tokens and depending on the price of the token, obviously, the value in fear changes, but those funds have to be used otherwise, they are just burned on a frequent basis.

So, we encourage you to submit more proposals to have more activity, that’s why we need to grow the community because there is money there. To do what you want to do on the blockchain. There is really a lot of need in education and creation of more content, like explaining how you can build daps, how you can interact with other blockchains or even what I see demand from the real world. So, like we recently had an event about defined real estate and a lot of real estate investors and big players are keen to enter this space of Defi because it’s innovative. It gives you a different liquidity pool gives a different opportunity, but a lot of traditional investors just don’t know how because we’re so decentralized, it’s difficult to find information. So, another point is to say I was surprised to discover how little we know in London about Polkadot and how small the community is. Now we’re growing finally, I’m very happy about that, but when I began, there was literally no one around building anything Polkadot, and now there are big development groups, artists building NFT platforms and marketplaces joining. So, that looks very exciting, you know, because the more we build,…

Ben Sheppard  30:35

How big is the community working in Polkadot now, in these different programs that you’ve just mentioned, are they 100s or 1000s?

Irina Karagyaur  30:45

By now we’re talking about hundreds, I won’t be able to give you the exact number as of today, but I think we’re approaching in our bachelor program, we’re approaching 1000 people.

Irina Karagyaur  30:57

Which is like, it’s big, but it’s still not enough. It is still not enough.

Ben Sheppard  30:57

Wow.

Ben Sheppard  31:03

People are doing these full-time jobs as well or part time jobs. I mean, what do you think the split is there is a lot of people doing it outside of their usual day to day job, you know, adding value to the Polkadot system in that way, or people like, Polland, you know, this is for me, you know, I’m all into this sort of method of working now.

Irina Karagyaur  31:24

You know, it’s interesting how people actually join, like me, out of curiosity, or wanting to learn or connect with teams that are building on Polkadot, and then many actually turn it into their day job, or they join teams that are building because as an ambassador, we have access to ecosystem jobs, advertiser, insight, jobs board. So, they’re oftentimes companies looking for community managers, marketers, developers, that there are numerous possibilities, how you can work on in actual ecosystem projects, then people are creative enough to even build their own Web3 academies, or they start building NFT’s stuff, or they’re just stuck. So, creating NFT’s, or they start creating content that they then monetize, or they create private groups where they educate, and get paid for educating about building daps. So, it is really up to you how you want to monetize this activity. If you want to go full time, because once you discover what’s out there, and that the opportunities are infinite, and the community is really welcoming, and even part of the technologies is really kind to provide advice, even for candidates that just came in yesterday and know nothing, you know, they’re kind enough to spend time with the newbies and explaining, okay, you did this, you did that. This is how it works, which is exciting to have all these resources for…

Ben Sheppard  33:14

I think it’s a super interesting business model. Okay, it’s gonna have teething problems, it’s a brand new type of business model, of course, it’s not going to go completely smoothly, but at the same time, people are there because they want to be there, they’re bidding on different bits of work, they’re motivated to deliver that work really off their own back, as opposed to in some scenarios, you have some employees and organizations that are really there just to get paid, they’re not necessarily happy in the job, you know, it’s just the place to be, but in this instance, it’s kind of flipped around the other way, like, the opportunities there, if you want to take it, you can be a part of this ecosystem, you can go after these bits of work and it’s up to you as a self-starter, to pursue this type of operation and then reach out to people and really be a master of your own destiny in many regards, and making that work and I think that’s a really interesting way to motivate people to be effective within a business that you can’t really do. If you do have that top-down management structure and okay, employment contracts that fix people into the role. In this case, you’re like independent contractors, motivated by different opportunities that you could be a part of, and bid on and win and then pursue and yeah, I think that can be a very good way of driving business forward, actually. I mean, there’s gonna be you said slashing, of course there has to be some slash and not everyone is going to perform at a standard that’s there’s going to be right for the organization or perhaps, you know, operating right ways, there’s always gonna have to be some kind of slashing, but I think overall, it’s kind of this very empowering way of operating and it certainly speaks to me like I’ve been an entrepreneur since 2012 now, you know, I lose count. I’m really driven by that sort of spirit. I guess that’s what exactly what this gives that sort of entrepreneurial spirit where you can come in and pursue these opportunities and outtake a project that you care about forwards in a very decentralized way. So, yeah, be interested in seeing how it sort of develops in the years to come? Because I think I started to hear about DAO’s. I think maybe a year and a half ago, DAO was one of the real first ones that came out, and then it sort of expanded out from there. You know, we’re seeing more and more of that sort of business model will come up now. So, what would your top three pieces of advice be to a group of co-founders looking to launch a new technology product? That’s going to have a DAO type business model within it? What would you give us sort of your three best pieces of advice on that?

Irina Karagyaur  36:18

I would say, transmit to the public your real values, because people join DAO’s, for values for personalities, for big ideas. Transformational, innovative, this is really the opportunity and chance for those who want to speak up, and who want to really truly change the way we live and the way we grow wealth, to create their DAO and create the rules and gather people just like I don’t know, we started with blogs on no written blogs, and then it all moved into a YouTube channel. So, we have creators and in the development space, because still, if we’re talking about blockchain, you know, its developer’s dominant environment, because if you can build then you can run it, you can do it, everybody else will join in terms of promotion, business, etc., but really the core for 1000s developers. I would also like to see more opportunities for learning about development. Actually, just like we came to an era where a website can be built without you needing to even edit any complex WordPress code, just by dragging different graphic elements. I would like to see them in blockchain so that soon we’ll be able to build that without needing to know the code, really. Hopefully, it’s, at least in the next 10 years. So, we’ll see that. Then being transparent, being honest, complying with real values of the blockchain movement, as it all began about being transparent about being innovative about building something of real value. We’re talking about real value and people who joined blockchain space, they all look for this. ways of doing things differently, and running governance, transparently based on fairness, not like our real governments that are failing, more and more. We just live in a world that doesn’t work anymore.

Ben Sheppard  38:40

Yeah. Okay. I mean, I have a slightly different opinion on that. I think there’s a right place and time for centralized models, and there’s a right place for decentralized models and I think there’s benefits to both and somehow these two need to work in harmony in different situations and I see some benefits in both of these, but what I really love that you said is the values part of it. I think in a DAO scenario, those values are really important. They really become more apparent, like they’re not just something written on a piece of paper in a major enterprise, like, this is our values, and this is how we operate. Actually, it’s not that at all, it really is, no, this is how we operate, because you need to have this governance token so you can vote and you can have a say, and you can dictate to some extent how this whole thing plays out. You really are a voice because there isn’t that executive board making this top-down sort of management decision. So, the values are right there in front of you. I think it’s really empowering for that individual to genuinely be able to have a say in the direction of where this thing goes and sort of the way that these things operate. So, I think yeah, that piece of advice to anyone out there that is thinking about moving into a DAO type route, you really need to think about the values of the product that you’re building and what you want that to aspire to be, and what the values are that surround that, and then get people along that journey with you. You know, kind of keep it on that track. That’s what’s gonna make it a success at the end of the day.

Irina Karagyaur  40:23

Yeah, if I may add my last comment about decentralization. So, what we all struggle with is actually even with this voting system, people are actually participating in the voting, there is now less than 1% actively participating in what happens like what anything to do with the on chain governance, so running the network, which is an issue, because we are building something that gives people the power, the voice and the ability to change and actually participate actively, and they don’t participate. This is the problem of our centralized world because everybody else waits for everybody else to do it. Then nobody takes the first step, and nobody takes responsibility. So, it really does come to a core value of our society again and taking responsibility and even taking responsibility for your own wealth management, because if you think about crypto management, right, you are the owner, the holder of your keys. If you lose that key, you know it’s your responsibility to deliver and recover your funds and to lose control of your funds. Yes, we’re not quite ready for that. Very few people are ready to take that responsibility for their own decision making, of their own wealth management. What we’re seeing now is a more hybrid system with Cefi and Defi together. We’ll see this for quite a while because also if you think about older generation, that they have no idea how to use these services, how can they manage their wealth, right, they need somebody, some custodian, or some middle person to help them store their keys, recover things if they get lost. So, we’ll see this in some generations when younger people will, you know, be already digital natives of blockchain and crypto assets. It will be something you know, as easy as now we’re using emails, which was very difficult ways, years ago, you know, and you didn’t have any security or you didn’t even have to prove your real name, you could just register an email with any nickname. That was all fine. So, we’re kind of in these days of blockchain when it’s still a bit of a nickname, kind of playground where things are tested, but the more we move forward, I guess the more decentralization will step back and give way to decentralization.

Ben Sheppard  42:51

My son’s gonna be great. Every time I leave the house, he asked me if I’ve got my keys. So, he’s primed, ready for this? But yeah, I completely understand what you mean. I don’t know if you’ve read the book Sapiens. It’s really ingrained into us, you know, the sort of model of following a leader in that way and sort of following while being sheep, following one another and following that sort of process and seeing how they did it and copying them. You know, whatever society dictates, and that way, we all do the same thing. So, this step change of moving towards decentralization flips it entirely on its head doesn’t there. So, it’s certainly not going to be something that happens simply overnight, like one day, you’re putting money in the bank, the next day, you’ve got some keys, in a sock drawer in your bedroom, and everyone’s, like trusting that they don’t lose those keys. That’s not going to happen overnight, and I don’t think it would ever go entirely to that route anyway, because when you get to a certain sum of investment, you do want that insured somehow, and you do want that store to an extent, but how it’s done. You know, not necessarily needs to be in an institution that’s then making money off of your money, and doing things when you can be making money off your own money and insuring it in different ways, which I think is sort of the underlying point here as well, but yeah, it’s super interesting to see where decentralization takes us and I’m really looking forward to seeing more projects in this space and the things that we can learn from it. Because, yeah, we’re only in the early stages of this so far, but there’s already some great examples of how you know how DAO’s are now operating in the real world.

Irina Karagyaur  44:44

Yeah, exciting dates and there’s more to come and talk about this at the very, very infancy.

Ben Sheppard  44:52

Yeah. It’s early days still. Irina, it’s been fantastic having you on the pod. I hope you’ve enjoyed it. I definitely want to get you back on again in future to get an update on things that you’ve been up to and what Polkadot is doing next. So, yeah, hope you’ve enjoyed being on the show.

Irina Karagyaur  45:10

Thank you, Ben. I enjoyed very much our conversation today and hope to see you soon in the future.

Ben Sheppard  45:16

Thank you.

45:20

If you enjoyed listening, don’t forget to rate, and subscribe to our podcasts and please share your feedback. Thanks for joining the TX podcast.

Related posts

Reference image for the NFTs with Matt Innes of Streamr post
2021-03-31
Podcast

NFTs with Matt Innes of Streamr

We dive into the hot topic of the moment, NFTs (Non Fungible Tokens), with Matt Innes, Chief Design Officer of the Streamr project.

Reference image for the Decentralized Finance with Julian Hosp of Cake Defi post
2021-03-03
Podcast

Decentralized Finance with Julian Hosp of Cake Defi

We kick off the DeFi series of our podcast with Dr. Julian Hosp, cofounder and CEO of Cake Defi. Our guest, Dr. Julian Hosp is the cofounder and CEO of Cake Defi – a platform that generates cash flow from cryptocurrencies and harnesses the possibilities of decentralized finance for its users.

Drop us a message to discuss your project

We’ll get back to you as soon as possible.

Find out more

For information on how we can transform your sector or business, please schedule a meeting or get in touch using the contact details below.

Jarmo Suoranta

CEO

+358 400 958 991
jarmo@tx.company

Mikael Koskimaa

CDO

+358 50 371 9516
mikael@tx.company