Matt Innes of Streamr and NFTs

Matt Innes of Streamr and NFTs

Matt Innes Streamr

2021-03-31

Matt Innes, Chief Design Officer of Streamr joins us from Melbourne, Australia to dive into the hottest topic of the moment – NFTs.

NFTs i.e. Non Fungible Tokens have been taking over the media space lately, with good cause. The most expensive NFT yet, made by Beeble, was recently sold for $69.3 million. Artists, musicians and digital designers everywhere are getting in on NFTs, and of course there’s backlash too.

Tune in with Matt and TX’s Ben Sheppard for a discussion on what NFTs are and what’s so groundbreaking about them? And why wouldn’t Matt trust anyone who says they know all about cryptos? We also hear the latest developments on the Streamr project.

Matt has been designing for cryptocurrency since 2013 leading design for projects like Hivewallet, Counterparty, Cobalt, Vizor and Golem. He also runs his own digital product design studio, Idealogue.

Streamr​ is working on the real-time data protocol of the decentralized web. The project was started by real-time data veterans with backgrounds in algorithmic trading and finance markets and is being built by contributors around the world. Streamr was crowdfunded $30M via ICO in October 2017.

Watch the video podcast on Youtube, or listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Key points with Matt Innes

  1. Introduction to NFTs
    NFTs (Non-Fungible Tokens) have emerged as one of the transformative digital innovations in recent times. Unlike traditional cryptocurrencies which are interchangeable or “fungible”, NFTs represent unique digital assets, providing proof of authenticity and ownership on the blockchain. This has profound implications, especially for artists and content creators.

    Matt Innes explains the potential financial benefit: “…if I mean something, and I sell it… all of a sudden all my early NFT’s are now worth a million bucks. Yeah, but instead now I get a cut of that.”
  2. NFT Platforms
    The world of NFTs is vast and diverse. While Ethereum remains a dominant platform for creating and trading NFTs, various other platforms are gaining traction. Platforms like Zora offer perpetual marketplaces for NFTs, allowing continuous trading and benefiting original creators.

    Moreover, there are environmentally friendly options available, as Matt Innes describes: “Most of these are on Ethereum, but not all of them. There’s a pretty interesting one called… based on the Tezos blockchain.”
  3. Streamr Project’s Evolution
    Streamr, a decentralized data streaming platform, is gearing up for significant changes. The upcoming Brubeck phase promises a more decentralized approach, enabling anyone to set up and run their own Streamr node. This shift is expected to herald a new era for the platform, making it a truly global and decentralized network.

    Matt Innes elaborates, “…heading into the first kind of phase of the open network, that’ll be the Brubeck stage of the streaming network.”
  4. NFTs and Personal Data
    The intersection of NFTs and personal data was a notable point of discussion. The idea centers on using NFTs to tokenize personal data, ensuring that as the data is sold or traded, the original owner continues to benefit from its value. This concept, introduced by Ben Sheppard, has the potential to revolutionize the way personal data is viewed and traded: “…could that personal data be wrapped up into an NFT, so that when it’s sold through a data union, the resale of that data, the profits from that could also be shared back to the original owner of that data?”
  5. Streamr’s Community Engagement
    Streamr is actively fostering a strong community-driven approach. The introduction of a voting platform is a testament to this, allowing the community to have a say in the platform’s direction and decisions. Topics for voting range from technical features to strategies surrounding token distribution.

    Matt Innes highlights the essence of this engagement: “Streamr has now got this voting platform for its community… It’s fantastic to see that up and running.”
  6. Future of Streamr
    Exciting developments are on the horizon for Streamr. The team is dedicated to enhancing its data unions ecosystem, aiming for a system as dynamic and open as the current DeFi platforms. There’s a significant push to make these data unions more sustainable and cost-effective.

    As Matt Innes hints at the forthcoming projects: “There’s definitely some interesting things coming up… aimed at growing the data unions ecosystem and helping our original data unit creators.”

The future of NFTs and decentralized technologies promises a transformative shift in how creators and individuals interact with digital assets. With continuous financial benefits to original creators and the potential for personal data integration, the value and ownership dynamics are poised for significant change. As platforms continue to evolve and diversify, the emphasis on sustainable, efficient, and inclusive solutions will dominate the landscape. Community-driven decision-making and innovative marketplaces will likely steer the direction, ensuring that the digital space becomes more equitable and versatile.

Transcript

Ben Sheppard  00:23

Hi, everyone, welcome to another episode of the TX – Tomorrow Explored podcast show. Super excited about the pod today because we’re going to be talking about NFT’s, Non-Fungible Tokens. Don’t worry, we’ll break down exactly what that means. To help me do that today, we’ve got Matt Innes, who’s the Chief Design Officer of Streamr on the show. Matt, how’s it going?

Matt Innes  00:54

Pretty good, Ben. Thanks for inviting me here. How are you doing?

Ben Sheppard  00:58

Yeah, really good. It’s been a great start to the year. Lots of exciting projects are going on. Crypto markets are still pretty bullish. NFT’s taken off so life is good. What more can we ask for in our industry?

Matt Innes  01:17

Green lights everywhere.

Ben Sheppard  01:18

I think the only thing that could improve is the weather here in Finland it’s what is it, probably zero degrees today. Grey, snowy bit crappy I miss Asia.

Matt Innes  01:32

Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing and Finland is great place with fairly terrible weather.

Ben Sheppard  01:37

Yeah. What’s it like down in [Inaudible 01:39]?

Matt Innes  01:41

Pretty nice. Yeah, we’re just kind of coming to the end of summer, which these days seems to be usually about six months long, but yeah, cannot complain life is sort of back to fairly normal. So, pretty nice.

Ben Sheppard  01:53

Cool. So, we’ve obviously worked together for I don’t know, three and a half years now initially through Streamr, then TX. I don’t think I ever asked you what brought you into the crypto industry. You obviously know my story. It was pinging a message through the Contact Us page and Shiv offering me a job basically, which was super cool, but what brought you into crypto?

Matt Innes  02:19

I guess originally, it was from a friend I used to live in Tokyo and a friend over there back in 2013 said oh, hey, look, I’ve got this pretty interesting project. You know, do you guys want to work on it? It kind of involves Bitcoin, you know, at that stage, we know very little about Bitcoin, but yeah, took the projects. So, that was a start, that was actually working on a website for Mt. Gox of all people. So, not a little bit of an infamous name there, but it was certainly an interesting project, from a design point of view. I’ll say that at least.

Ben Sheppard  02:57

What year was that, when you got involved, do you remember?

Matt Innes  03:00

Yes, it was the end of 2013 or middle of 2013. So, yeah, fairly early on and we sort of, you know, started with that. Then you know, those guys obviously imploded and went on to do a hive wallet, which is kind of an early bitcoin wallet. That was a pretty good project, that was for Mac and iOS. Yeah, that was kind of the start really.

Ben Sheppard  03:25

I’m assuming you didn’t buy any bitcoin in 2013 otherwise you wouldn’t be sat here talking to me.

Matt Innes  03:31

No, they did give us the offer to get the whole fee that were being charged there in Bitcoin and that was in Bitcoin, $72 I think so. That was, you know, in hindsight, like a fairly bad idea to do that, but yes. It’s okay, like, we were getting paid in Bitcoin in 2014. I managed to hang on to some of that. So, not bad news.

Ben Sheppard  03:59

I first heard about Bitcoin in a bar in Vietnam and my friend we were there doing an infrastructure project, and he said, he heard about these Bitcoins, do you think we should get some and I was like, well, what is it and he told me, I was like, no, that sounds crazy.

Matt Innes  04:17

Yeah, sure. I mean, my first reaction when I was told it was, you know, pretty much like everyone else’s who didn’t know anything about it, which was when I heard about it, which was like, oh, it’s footballing drugs, isn’t it? You know, that was pretty much what I knew about at that time. So, in other words, I knew absolutely nothing about it at that time, but I’ve learned maybe a little bit since then.

Ben Sheppard  04:38

Yeah. Indeed. Okay, cool. So, topic for today, Non-Fungible Tokens NFT’s. This has become one of the hottest trends in 2021 with overall sales of 55% already since 2020. Moving from 250 million to 389 million market is what I got from coin base this morning. I’m reading this off the site now. I mean, that’s staggering. I mean, that is some big numbers and the most expensive NFT sold today 69.3 million for the Beeble everyday piece, which is a cool piece. 69.3 million, wow.

Matt Innes  05:19

Yeah, look, I mean, you know, I think it’s like a lot of things. I mean, money is a story, and you know, Beeble has got a great story. So, if you know, the background to that work, he was doing, like one piece every day for 13 years or something. So, everyone was just like, how does this guy do this? How does he manage to do his other jobs and still manage every day to turn out some amazing 3d piece, and no one ever really found out the answer to that, like, how does he manage to do this stuff? So, he had this kind of great origin story so that when it all kind of came together, then he never sold out up until that point, and then if you’re gonna sell out, you might as well sell out for $70 million, right?

Ben Sheppard  06:01

I mean, yeah, why not? Absolutely. So, let’s break it down for our listeners, Matt, what is an NFT, and can we start with? So probably a lot of our listeners won’t even know what a Fungible Token is compared to a Non-Fungible Token. So, can we start with that, and then sort of work up from there into what is an NFT? Why are they interesting? Why are they important? What does this mean for the world?

Matt Innes  06:27

Sure. I mean, you know, like, just fancy terms, but in simple terms are Fungible Tokens, just one that’s the same as all the other ones. So, a Non-Fungible Token is a unique one and that’s the heart of it. So, it’s based on a particular standard ERC 721 which defines particular properties of the token, but you know, that’s essentially all it is. It’s not exchangeable. If you have one Bitcoin and I have one Bitcoin doesn’t really matter whether I give you mine, you give me yours, they’re the same, like they have slightly different private keys, but aside from that, one is completely exchangeable with the other just like, $1 note but if you have a Banksy piece, and I have a [Inaudible 07:04], or something like that, obviously, those things are not exchangeable directly. So, that’s really all they are. So, you know, that’s the meaning of it. Where are they today? I mean, look, I guess the thing was with Ethereum, ICOs were the first kind of wave, they were the first killer app. Then Defy was the second wave, you know, that came through. Then NFT’s is the third and each of these had different audiences. So, ICOs, that audience for those who was essentially tech startup founders, and then Defy the audience that was a little bit bigger. It was, you know, crypto traders, but it was also kind of tech savvy finance people. So, the door opened a little bit wider with those, but then NFT’s it’s like anyone who likes digital art. So, the audience is that much bigger and that’s why we started seeing, you know, such a larger response, because it’s moving into the mainstream. It’s not completely mainstream, but it’s definitely like a larger step than each of these others has been.

Ben Sheppard  08:02

Yeah, I mean, just on LinkedIn, seeing people there talking about NFT’s and the type of people that are talking about it, so Gary Vee, for example, you know, I don’t think he’s ever talked really about cryptocurrency but NFT’s because he’s a big baseball card fan and NBA card fan NFT’s for him big thing. So, all of a sudden, he’s talking about it and you can see a number of others talking about it as a result of that Elon Musk, you know, selling tweets, Jack Dorsey selling tweets, and then the money he’s got from it, giving it to charity. Fantastic. So, really, it’s a very wide canvas now of people that are getting interested in this, which ultimately is great for crypto and blockchain, isn’t it as a whole, it really, you know, it’s yet another use case that people can get their heads around and sort of be a part of that.

Matt Innes  08:51

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I mean, you know, this is one of the ones that anyone can get on and it’s kind of you know, a lot more accessible. There’re so many people doing interesting things. Like, obviously, as you mentioned, there’s the people [Inaudible 09:04], but you know, like A fix tweens, musician, he’s in there, he’s got some NFT’s up, Pussy Riot, the Russian activists, they’ve got some crazy ones out there that are pretty cool. The guy who made Nyan Cat, you know, the Nyan cat, it’s like Daft Punk stuff. You know, it’s this kind of explosion of energy. I mean, amongst the people that I know, every single illustrator, digital creator, designer, musician, are doing it sure, you know, is there a backlash against it too, in sort of a sense of bandwagon jumping? Yeah, but look, who cares, you know, like there really is a lot of great energy coming out is the other problem. Sure, and we can delve into some of those a little bit later, but I just think the energy is amazing.

Ben Sheppard  09:50

One of the funniest things I read this morning in the lead up top pod was what Taco Bell has done. So, Taco Bell has been selling off JPEGs of tacos and different things associated with that and you get a $500 voucher with it, when you buy the NFT, so you can go out and spend it in the Taco Bell shops, but what’s interesting is, those NFT’s are then selling in a secondary market for a higher than amount than what they originally purchased and they don’t have the $500 coupon. So, why is that Matt? Why is it selling for more in the secondary market? What’s the dynamics Matt?

Matt Innes  10:27

Look, who knows? I mean, one of the things that the most interesting things I think about all of crypto is that, you know, anyone who tells you that they know all about crypto is lying, because they just don’t, you know, the things that crypto has enabled have been so surprising to most people. I mean, you know, bitcoins price is just one of them, but there really are many and I guess the thing for me was just the understanding that money is a story. When people come to you with this kind of thing, like in the early days, like crypto, hey, it’s not real money. It’s like, have you had a close look at this thing that you call money? Like every had a look at these little pieces of paper with little hand printed on it, it’s all nice. And, you know, back in the day, when someone said, hey, you know, I’ve got this little piece of paper, take your brick of gold, and give me your brick of gold and I’ll give you this little piece of paper that just be a puff, not from my cold dead hands, right? So, I mean, you know, it’s definitely like, yeah, it’s enabled all kinds of new things and they don’t all make sense, crypto is this. Basically, if you have a good narrative, that can be valuable. You know, if you issue a token, and you can make people believe that you have an interesting project, and you show energy, then that energy has value and that’s something that we was never really captured by anything before. So, I think you know, crypto is a totally new mechanism to capture value that hasn’t really existed before.

Ben Sheppard  11:50

Yeah. I mean, so you touched on, earlier in the conversation, there’s some negatives around the NFT’s, as well, I mean, I, saw one thing this morning, where basically, a group of tacky people basically bought a Banksy, and burnt it so that the value was not in the original painting, it was now in the NFT, and it was, oh, my goodness, this could go bad. Wrong, very bad.

Matt Innes  12:22

I’m sure it will, like, you know, I mean, there’s obviously one of the things that’s kind of out there already is people just ripping off other people’s work, meeting an NFT of them, and then passing it off as their own. So, obviously, quite a lot of the sites that are, you know, at the center of this, have thought about that and so they’re obviously kind of making at least part of their role, as you know, sort of establishing curatorial values, but also establishing reputations and verifying trust. So, like completely an utterly decentralized, no middleman, nothing at all, is that the way to go? I mean, look, in so many things, that’s often better, but it isn’t going to be the best thing here that I’m not entirely convinced this year, but I think, you know, one of the things that is most interesting about NFT’s, that hasn’t existed before, is the value to the creators, that’s really kind of the key thing, you know, definitely, like we can joke about $10,000, JPEGs, and all this kind of stuff, or, you know, $500,000 JPEGs, but the thing that’s really new and different is the fact that these things are all contracts. I mean, literally, that’s what they are smart contracts, right? So, you have the ability to every time your NFT gets sold, the creator gets a little cut of that. That’s an entirely new thing that can be set in that meantime, so the creator has real control of the work now. You know, like you said, will there be problems when people rip things off? Absolutely, but this kind of thing is fundamentally new if I mean something, and I sell it, and maybe I make 10 bucks, and then you buy it, and you sell it and then I get a little cut of that and then maybe a couple of years down the road, suddenly I’ll do something else and all of a sudden all my early NFT’s are now worth a million bucks. Yeah, but instead now I get a cut of that I get some of that value now and that’s hasn’t existed before.

Ben Sheppard  14:18

Yeah. I’m going to turn my son’s paintings into NFT’s straight after this for [Crosstalk 14:22].

Matt Innes  14:25

Sure. Where does it go? I mean, I think the possibilities for all kinds of like, you know, weed criminality are extremely high, but there’s plenty of other really fascinating ones as well.

Ben Sheppard  14:40

What sort of NFT’s are out there and what other types of NFT’s can you sort of see happening on the horizons obviously, and there’s music, we’ve talked about that? What are the sorts of NFT’s as you’re saying?

Matt Innes  14:52

Well, look at the moment, it’s there. The excitement is all around kind of art and music, though that said, I’ve seen people minting pages from novels as NFT’s. Is that a great way to go? Is that a way to serialize things? Maybe, I mean, I think there’s definitely legitimate concerns about, you know, the kind of carbon output of proof of work blockchains like Ethereum 1.0, which is totally valid, but you know, the possibilities of this thing unlocked are pretty amazing, you know, anything basically, that needs a public permissionless system for verifying ownership, or some sort of achievement, those things, they can all basically be done with NFT’s. I mean, that includes thinking about, like, how do you own your house or apartment? You know, do you have some sort of piece of paper sitting somewhere with a lawyer or PDF file? Of course, it’s going to replace that, you know, there’s so many things that can replace, but I think the exciting thing about this NFT’s moment, is people just realizing, hey, well, this is why I’d like Cryptos to be actually really useful at certain things. Some people, that’s a bit of a revelation.

Ben Sheppard  16:03

Indeed. So, I searched on proof of work there and the issue with Ethereum 1.0, presumably, NFT’s are available on other blockchains, though, are they or is it at the moment, just all focused on Ethereum.

Matt Innes  16:17

So, you know, the kind of big and popular things are mostly on Ethereum. You know, there’s like foundation, that’s, you know, has very high-quality curation, big name creators, and traditional sort of timed auctions. That’s on the theory. Zora, which is another one that’s technically a little bit more interesting. That’s also on Ethereum. Let me just touch on that really briefly, because the interesting thing underlying Zora, that’s kind of different to the other ones, is that most of the other popular NFT sites are all about just traditional timed auctions, you know, once the time runs out, all bids are in that’s finished, but what Zora does, it creates a permanent market, which is attached to that NFT and so, you know, I create something, I sell it to you, and you buy off 10 bucks, and then someone else can come in at any time and put bids on it, you don’t have to accept them, but if you want, you can, and then if you do, it goes, it’s automatically transferred to the next person, I get a little cut and then they can do the same thing. So, it’s kind of like a permanent auction that’s always available and that’s kind of pretty clever. That’s kind of pretty new, but yeah, so we were talking about the blockchain, most of these are on Ethereum, but not all of them. There’s a pretty interesting one called, man, my pronunciation of this would be terrible, because I just do not speak Latin, but I think it’s called [Inaudible 17:38], and now. It’s just a friend of mine who’s been putting out some pieces on there. That was pretty interesting. It’s super, super kind of low end, but it’s all based on the tezos blockchain. So, which is the proof of stake. So, it’s kind of environmentally friendly. It’s extremely cheap to mint, I think, at the moment, it costs about 30 cents to interface to mint a NFT on that. So, it’s, you know, orders of magnitude, given the minting on most of the other platforms can cost me $100, roughly a moment, something like that. So, really very different.

Ben Sheppard  18:18

Yeah, those guess prices are a podcast all on their own. Okay, cool. So, you obviously part of the Streamr project as well, Matt. So, let’s move the conversation towards Streamr, maybe also consider his Streamr thinking about NFT’s in any way, but in general, what Streamr up to now? Any exciting things that are happening at the moment that you can share with us?

Matt Innes  18:46

Sure, yeah. Well, all kinds of things, we’re sort of heading into the first kind of phase of the open network, that’ll be the Brubeck stage of the streaming network. So, this can be a pretty exciting thing. That’s when anyone can run their own sort of Streamr node for the first time. So, that’s when it truly decentralizes and really becomes like a global network. So, you know, up until now, it’s just been it’s kind of hybrid thing. So, this is really like the first time when we can really see all of the things that the Streamr network can do. So, yeah, there’s kind of a lot of changes leading up to there. We’re sort of doing a new website, there’s [Inaudible 19:29], 2.0. That’s coming out now and that’s tackling one of the things we were just talking about, which is the guess prices because deploying data unions has been kind of crazily expensive. So, that’s the EU 2.0 swaps in the X-di-chain and that means, things are wildly cheaper to deploy, and it gives people the ability to be able to send tokens backwards and forwards amongst themselves almost for free. There so and all kinds of interesting stuff like that. So, I guess that’s the first thing I’m part of like a multi chain Streamr. So, I guess the whole thing that a lot of people don’t necessarily understand is that no streamer is at the base level, like this level was zero protocol. It sits underneath blockchains. It isn’t a blockchain itself. It’s a data network and then above that comes the Ethereum blockchain at the moment, but like I said, we’ve also got now got the X-di-chain, and we were looking at other chains as including Avalanche and other ones for the data union, Superunknown. The Avalanche might have been nice, but it wasn’t quite the right fit for what we needed. But, you know, the great thing is, there are so many different options now, it’s really not going to be like a single blockchain world for very much longer. It isn’t now, but it’s just that all of these other chains that have been coming out are now actually getting to the stage where they got really solid use cases, especially in times of, you know, very high guess.

Ben Sheppard  20:54

We’ve got Avalanche coming on the pod in a couple of weeks’ time. So, they listened to this one, I’ll be sure and answer ready for them on why we went with ex-post Avalanche in this instance, but I’m curious, the whole data unions thing and talking about NFT’s. I’m just throwing out an idea here now, but when we talk about data unions, a lot of the use cases that Shib has been looking at is around personal data. So, I mean, could that personal data be wrapped up into an NFT, so that when it’s sold through a data union, the resale of that data, the profits from that could also be shared back to the original owner of that data? Is that something that’s been thought about?

Matt Innes  21:36

I don’t think that particular things have been thought about because, you know, we’ve sort of been focused on solving the immediate problems of the builders on the you one point. So, that’s been the main thing, but that is an interesting idea. You know, I really liked that idea that these things could be a lot more mobile, and you know, the original creators could get a cut, if they’re sold on and that sort of stuff. I think that’s a really interesting idea. I mean, you know, that’s definitely the core strength of NFT’s, really. Yeah, it would be awesome to be able to leverage them. At the moment that’s kind of not what we have in mind immediately, but yeah, as an idea, I think it’s really interesting.

Ben Sheppard  22:20

I had two coffees this morning that got the old brand. I guess the other thing to mention is Streamr has now got this voting platform for its community as well. So, I’ve seen a number of proposals go out on that. It’s fantastic to see that up and running, what sort of things have been voted on so far?

Matt Innes  22:42

Well, one of them was fairly technical and procedural, just about removing a particular feature in order to kind of decentralize quicker. That was the canvases part of the core app. That’s not really terribly controversial. The other one is changing like, opening the door to changing the hard cap on the number of tokens that Streamr has at the moment and that one passed, and that one’s a kind of a future looking one, looking towards the rollout of the network and things I guess, you know, Streamr did so ICO in 2017. So, the entire space is wildly different from that time. We’ve been able to look at a lot more examples of what other projects have done in terms of their decentralized networks and learn some learnings from that. I think it’s one of those is that you’re generally speaking, in the early stages of running your network, you really want to incentivize users to adopt it, because if you’re just running on the only rewards that users who are running nodes can get use the data transport fees. In the early days of the network, you typically had a lot of supply and not much demand. So, instead of bootstrap through that, and definitely one of the ideas behind this step, one proposal is to give us some more tokens to incentivize the early adopters of the network so that we can grow it fast and get it ready for adoption now.

Ben Sheppard  24:11

That sounds cool. Okay, great. All righties. Just to wrap it up what’s the next thing on the horizon for Streamr are anything in particular, you can pluck out there that the art community can be looking forward to?

Matt Innes  24:26

There’s definitely some interesting things coming up. I can’t talk about it all at the moment. There’s one pretty cool one coming up that will definitely be talking to you about pretty soon, which is, you know, probably shouldn’t say too much, but it’s aimed at growing the data unions ecosystem and helping our original data unit creators and making that whole system more open. Essentially, what we’re trying to do there is make that whole system as open and composable as kind of the defy systems. So, you know, one of them to take on their own life beyond Streamr. So, probably about that as much as I want to say on it, but that’s probably one of the next things.

Ben Sheppard  25:12

So, watch this space. I’ll be getting your Henry back on in the near future then to talk about whatever this revelation is, but I can see it’s something exciting.

Matt Innes  25:24

That sounds awesome.

Ben Sheppard  25:25

Cool, Matt. It’s been super having you on the show. Hope you’ve enjoyed it and thanks for talking to us through NFT’s. That was a really great explanation you gave in it.

Matt Innes  25:36

No worries. Thanks very much been absolutely my pleasure to be on here.

25:41

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